What have you learned lately?

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:23 pm

tzor wrote: Yes but very few pro-life people argue against abortion in the real case of the physical life of the mother.

There should not be any arguing that. The fact that there is any shows the inherent craziness on that side of the border. Some pro-lifers wind up being pro-murder as well, and the scary part is that some act on it.

tzor wrote: The problem is that people claim "abortions are safe and legal." The reality is that illegal abortionists can now perform "legal" abortions and the back alley is now just a crappy office room. Most abortion mills would make 18th century medicine seem sanitary by comparison.

Your hyperbole is loose. Might wanna chain it up.

You put quotations around "legal" but not illegal? You have those backwards if you want to make any sense, unless you know of some law that I do not.

As for MOST abortion clinics (I assume that is what your word "mill" means) making 18th century medicine seem sanitary... wat? There has to be some sort of rational disconnect there. Given that germ theory wasn't really applied widely until the late 1800's... what the hell are you talking about?

If you can't keep your exaggerations under leash, that is why people out of hand dismiss your statistics tzor.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:51 pm

most planned parenting places cite that less than 10% of their walk-ins deal with abortions. most of them deal with other things PP takes part in.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:25 pm

Maj wrote:I realize that not all experiences with Planned Parenthood are the same, and that's actually why I have such a problem with your rants. It ends up sounding to me like someone railing against all bald people because of skinheads.

Hey, if Frank can rant against the whole of Christianity because of a few rotten apples, and if Crissa can rant against all conservatives and pro-lifers because of a few rotten apples, and if the count can rant against all women, then I can rant against PP for their bad apples; it's a Den tradition!

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:31 pm

violence in the media wrote:Tzor, you have it all wrong. Planned Parenthood's goal is ... in order to summon the devil.

I thought that all PP members were athiest LaVeyan Satanists; it's so hard to tell Satanists apart these days.

P.S. - For the satire impared - I AM NOT SERIOUS

violence in the media · Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:34 pm

tzor wrote:
violence in the media wrote:Tzor, you have it all wrong. Planned Parenthood's goal is ... in order to summon the devil.
I thought that all PP members were athiest LaVeyan Satanists; it's so hard to tell Satanists apart these days.

It's only the receptionists, so I can see why you'd make that mistake.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:34 pm

Ganbare Gincun wrote:He's actually pretty cogent as far as teabaggers go. But like the rest, he is deluded by propaganda and sophistry.

People didn’t believe the Nazi death camps either and some still don’t to this day. I’m too entrenched in original AD&D philosophy; you can try to disbelieve but it won’t go away.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:44 pm

clikml wrote:As for MOST abortion clinics (I assume that is what your word "mill" means) making 18th century medicine seem sanitary... wat? There has to be some sort of rational disconnect there. Given that germ theory wasn't really applied widely until the late 1800's... what the hell are you talking about?

BINGO! Hold your cards please; we have a BINGO called on aisle 5. There is a reason modern operations are done in sanitary sterile operating rooms (and not in just any old office) using sterilized equipment (is the combs used by my barber more sterile than the instruments they use in some clinics … from what I have heard the answer is yes) and following standard hazardous waste disposal rules and regulations (as opposed to the common leave them in a closet and chuck them out with the trash).

Look, somewhere out there is a doctor who has to perform an operation in a hospital to save a woman’s life; there might have been an alternative but he didn’t see it at the time – doctors are only human; using the most advanced medical procedures to ensure the health and well being of the patient. Then there is also Sweeny Todd. Both are equally covered and protected by the near religious mantra of the progressive movement wrongly called a “woman’s right,” which is really an “abortionist’s right” to do just about whatever he damn well feels like.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:06 pm

Crissa wrote:Secondly, you still have no evidence abortions make this non-profit any money, not even enough to pay for the total number they perform.

First of all, the fundamental goal of any corporate executive is not to make a “profit” for the company but a “salary” for themselves. Technically speaking a “non-profit” organization doesn’t make a profit, but we are talking about “Planned Parenthood” (I keep forgetting about that point) and well actually they do make an ‘excess of revenue of expenses.’ U.S. Planned Parenthood Reports Record Profit, Record Amount of Taxpayer Funding, “During the year of 2005-06, besides reporting that 264,943 children were killed by medical and surgical abortions performed by its clinics, it also reported a record income, including a record amount of taxpayer funding. Planned Parenthood’s total income for the year was $902.8 million, with a $55.8 million profit.”

Their latest annual report is here. The report is kind of small; smaller than what it was when I last looked it up a few years ago. I wonder if they are trying to hide something. The IRS form 990 is here.

Code: Select all

FOR TAX YEAR 2007
Total Revenue  85,758,316
Total Expenses 69,329,208
Excess         16,429,108

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:09 pm

No tzor. That's not even close to true.

The pro-choicers are the ones trying to get abortions into clean hospitals and the anti-abortionists like yourself are trying to push them underground.

And you still haven't come clean about how you linked to actual attempted murder as a piece of "evidence" for your side. Seriously. Murder. You should be ashamed of yourself.

-Username17

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:27 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:No tzor. That's not even close to true.

The pro-choicers are the ones trying to get abortions into clean hospitals and the anti-abortionists like yourself are trying to push them underground.

Fucking hell no Frank, it's the "pro choice" who thinks that even placing clinics within certain distances of hospitals in case complications develop during the procedure is a violation of the inalienable right of Roe v Wade that such requirements should be struck down and permanently denied.

Planned Parenthood doesn't run hospitals Frank, what part of that don't you understand? PP is the major pro-choice lobbying group out there, what part of that don't you understand?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:42 pm

The part I don't understand is the part where you think Planned Parenthood is some sort of ninja financial shell game that has a vested interest in providing abortions. They are not.

People should be able to get abortions. That should be completely indisputable, but hey - you're here disputing it. People should have access to hospitals. That shouldn't be disputable either, but we have you crazy teabaggers out there disputing that too! And yes, those things should go hand in hand.

But sometimes they don't. Sometimes you have hospitals that refuse to offer abortions because they are run by Catholics who would rather people fucking die than get safe medical treatments they happen to not like. Sometimes you have places where they don't have hospitals at all. And that sucks. And then people make clinics to do those abortions because that's the next best thing.

And then you have the fucking gall to come in and criticize people for doing abortions outside the hospital setting, even though it's anti-abortion Catholics who are kicking the abortions out of the hospital setting in the first place! Your disingenuous complaints don't fly here, because I see what you did there!

But tzor, you're still ducking the question that's on everyone's mind. You linked to "Feminists for Life of America" instead of making your own case. Presumably you meant that these "feminists" speak for you?

FfLoA wrote:Since we are both pro-woman and pro-life, we refuse to choose between women and children.

Sometimes doctors advise abortion because they are unaware of other options or because they are pressured by fear of malpractice suits. We believe that physicians and other medical personnel should treat both patients and do what they can to save both lives.

Uh huh. In emergency cases where people are given tough choices, they demand that people not make choices. Even though not making a choice is a choice. And more importantly, it's a choice that can get real people really killed.

You don't have the luxury of "not choosing" in emergency medicine. That's just letting people die. And if you're trying to keep people from making emergency medical choices, you're seriously murdering people.

Murdering people. That is the pro-life agenda. Always has been.

-Username17

violence in the media · Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:56 pm

tzor wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:No tzor. That's not even close to true.

The pro-choicers are the ones trying to get abortions into clean hospitals and the anti-abortionists like yourself are trying to push them underground.
Fucking hell no Frank, it's the "pro choice" who thinks that even placing clinics within certain distances of hospitals in case complications develop during the procedure is a violation of the inalienable right of Roe v Wade that such requirements should be struck down and permanently denied.

Planned Parenthood doesn't run hospitals Frank, what part of that don't you understand? PP is the major pro-choice lobbying group out there, what part of that don't you understand?

You do realize that many abortions are outpatient procedures, right? By your rationale, vasectomy clinics, dentists, plastic surgeons, and many other medical businesses need to be located "within certain distances of hospitals in case complications develop during the procedure."

Though, if you actually gave a shit, you could just make this simpler and require hospitals to perform legal abortions.

Ninja'd by Frank.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:32 pm

violence in the media wrote:You do realize that many abortions are outpatient procedures, right? By your rationale, vasectomy clinics, dentists, plastic surgeons, and many other medical businesses need to be located "within certain distances of hospitals in case complications develop during the procedure."

Depending on the nature of the outpatient service and the level of potential surgical complications, I believe this is the case. Some of your examples are the mildest forms of operations with very little chance for complications (as opposed to someone starting to hack within a person's uterus and the potential for massive bleeding if a mistake is made). Unfortunately my Law Google Fu is bad and not being a lawyer I don't pay to use the legal libraries, but there are regulations. There's regulations for everything and everything is waved for the sacred practice of abortion.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:39 pm

tzor, what the fuck? Planned Parenthood is not a monolithic evil entity devoted to the mass murder of all the world's babies. It is not devoted to making abortions unsafe and destructive. You are ranting insanely at things that either aren't a problem or aren't true.

I get that you have a religious fervor driving you to hate abortion, but why do you specifically rave about how Planned Parenthood is ran by the devil himself?

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:45 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The part I don't understand is the part where you think Planned Parenthood is some sort of ninja financial shell game that has a vested interest in providing abortions. They are not.

I don't think I've ever called them a "shell game."

Simply put:
PP is to abortion services
as AARP is to supplemental insurance services
They both have a vested interest because it is a major part of revenue stream. Do you really think that PP would get as much federal funding from the Democratic party and as much private funding if they were not providing abortion services?

FrankTrollman wrote:But sometimes they don't. Sometimes you have hospitals that refuse to offer abortions because they are run by Catholics ...

Ah yes, blame the fucking Catholics. That's your answer to everything. What you can't control you blame.

I mean seriously, out of all the abortions performed, how many abortions are "emergency situations" where the life of the mother is in danger and there is no other alternate to ensure the life of the mother?

FrankTrollman wrote:But tzor, you're still ducking the question that's on everyone's mind. You linked to "Feminists for Life of America" instead of making your own case. Presumably you meant that these "feminists" speak for you?

I normally don't like to speak off of the top of my head because that's just like speaking from out of my ass. I like to cross reference as much as possible, link to the actual data, as opposed to "just take my word for it." (As you tend to do with your arguments by the way, if you are making the arguments that there are so many emergency abortions because the life of the mother is in immediate danger and so many pro-life legislation proposing that abortions take place anywhere but a hospital you should put up or shut up!)

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:00 pm

Cielingcat wrote:tzor, what the fuck? Planned Parenthood is not a monolithic evil entity devoted to the mass murder of all the world's babies. It is not devoted to making abortions unsafe and destructive. You are ranting insanely at things that either aren't a problem or aren't true.

I love how you need to go into hyperbole to defend Planned Parenthood.

I’m still fondly remembering when the shoe was on the other foot and you all were building such similar hyperbole to spin equal theories about how “evil” Bush was only there you were trying to support the argument not tear it down.

Dr. Evil does not run Planned Parenthood; I have never claimed he did.

I will say it is more like an example of “the thin blue line.” They have a vested interest in the promotion of abortions (due in part to the notion that there are static costs involved for the provision of the service and if there appears to be no demand donations may not be as forthcoming) and as a result there is a vested interest not to look too closely at both the problems within their organization and the basic problems derived from their organization itself. Those who know of the problems are afraid that the revelation of those problems will cause the whole organization to come down and thus will suppress those problems as much as possible.

After all, I’m sure that the tobacco industry once thought they had a wonderful product as well until they found evidence of the contrary and went to great lengths to conceal it. You don’t have to be “monolithic evil entity devoted to the mass murder” in order to be really fundamentally bad at the core.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:05 pm

You're claiming that Planned Parenthood has some evil conspiracy to force young girls to have abortions by providing inadequate birth control. You specifically made the claim that they want everyone to have 3-5 abortions, in this very thread.

Even the tobacco industry only wanted to make money by killing people, not specifically to kill people.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:12 pm

tzor wrote:Ah yes, blame the fucking Catholics. That's your answer to everything.

I understand that you take the low road of Phil Donahue every time something bad the Catholics do turns up in conversation, but try to keep up. The gynecology department where I personally was born no longer serves abortions because it was purchased by the Catholic Church and had its abortion services terminated by them. Catholic Hospital West purchases hospitals and closes down abortion services in them. I've down EMT work in hospitals both belonging and not belonging to Catholic Hospital West. This is not an internet rumor, this is direct evidence fact.

And now you, an acknowledged member of Pope Palpatine's imperial knights has come in here with a pre-fab talking point that abortions outside of a hospital setting should be banned. You don't see the blatant misrepresentation going on? Not even a little bit?

-Username17

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:16 pm

Cielingcat wrote:You're claiming that Planned Parenthood has some evil conspiracy to force young girls to have abortions by providing inadequate birth control. You specifically made the claim that they want everyone to have 3-5 abortions, in this very thread.

I believe that I said that there was a conspiracy within Planned Parenthood; that is different from saying that the organization at the national level was organizing that conspiracy. The organization may have been responsible for quota management, and other ways to encourage this behavior even as an unintended consequence. The organization may also seek to actively suppress problems within the organization (just as many other organizations do).

The only different is that when these rotten apples are discovered in other areas they are removed and prevented from happening again. Abortion, being a sacred procedure, nay a Supreme Court demanded inalienable right, must never be questioned and is all good and deserving of all our love. That’s why people like Frank take the most extreme case and use it to justify everything!

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:21 pm

Cielingcat wrote:Even the tobacco industry only wanted to make money by killing people, not specifically to kill people.

Gee, Cielingcat, are you suggesting that the pre-born are actually people? Becasue normally, an abortion doesn't kill the person who is pregnant; unless they really botched it up.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:25 pm

I am indeed suggesting that fetuses are people. But people do not have any right to enslave other people, even if its required for them to stay alive.

Abortions should be rare and we should make every effort to make people want to have less of them. But you are going after the course that is not pro-life but rather anti-woman.

If you really want to stop all abortions, which I don't think your Dark Lords really care about, you should start funding scientific research into like, vat grown babies or whatever.

violence in the media · Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:26 pm

tzor wrote:I mean seriously, out of all the abortions performed, how many abortions are "emergency situations" where the life of the mother is in danger and there is no other alternate to ensure the life of the mother?

Hell no. We are not playing this pussyfooting "emergency situations" game. A woman should be able to get an abortion for any fucking reason she wants. Even the irresponsible, objectionable, or morally repugnant ones.

In a conflict of rights/interests like this, someone has to lose. My vote is that the fetus loses. Every time.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:31 pm

You cannot simultaneously believe in Free Markets and be against Abortion under any circumstances.

Giving birth is called "Labor" for a reason. If someone does not wish to do it, then they do not have to do it unless they are a slave.

-Username17

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:35 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Catholic Hospital West purchases hospitals and closes down abortion services in them. I've down EMT work in hospitals both belonging and not belonging to Catholic Hospital West. This is not an internet rumor, this is direct evidence fact.

Catholic Healthcare West wrote:We provide quality, compassionate health care at more than 40 hospitals and care centers that are serving communities across California, Arizona and Nevada every minute of every day. And while not everyone may live near a major medical facility, CHW is making health care more accessible by bringing resources closer to where people live and work.

the interactive map

Yes, I can see how this world wide conspiracy of the Catholic Church (confined to 40 hospitals mostly in California, a state that is known to currently be in the financial crapper with a whopping ton of people without either insurance or working papers) is your justification for everything.

I’m from New York, where the state has been trying to force the few Catholic Hospitals that there are (ironically most are almost next door to other hospitals) to cover abortion on demand (for any reason whatsoever, not just to save the life of the mother) and to force celibate priests to have to pay for contraceptive coverage in their health insurance plans.

Got to admit, the 40 hospitals do make a wonderful “fact.”

In a rolling on the floor, laughing out loud sort of way.

violence in the media · Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:43 pm

So 40 Catholic hospitals in California and "a handful" in New York refuse to provide abortions and that doesn't seem to be credible evidence to you that Catholics will deny abortion services whenever they have the power to do so?

Can you point me to a list of Catholic hospitals anywhere that offer on demand abortion services? I mean, that would actually weaken the argument that Catholics are being active impediments. Not this bullshit argument you have that people can go get abortions elsewhere and then complain that these abortions aren't being performed in a hospital.